What is the profile of the Islamic community in Portugal?
The arrival of the Islamic community in Portugal occurred mainly after the independence of the Portuguese colonies, namely Mozambique and Guinea-Bissau. At the time, this population reached - and until recently, 20 years ago, it reached around - 65 thousand, including Muslims or followers of Islam. Many of them came with great financial skills, some with qualifications, which is why we have seen that many of them dedicated themselves to business and commerce. There was no perfect integration, if one can say that, but there were also no social upheavals resulting from the arrival of this mass of population. Things remained that way, with a balance between the new arrivals, between the people who returned or came to Portugal, and those who understood that Portugal was their country and, therefore, it would make perfect sense for them to be here.
And today, do you see this balance among the new Muslim citizens who are settling here?
Western Europe was showing itself to be a place of the future, a place of promise, a place where a better life could be achieved. Therefore, more economic migrants began to arrive, largely because some of these countries were in turmoil. This is the case of Pakistan and Bangladesh, for example. This contributed to an ever-increasing flow of citizens from this geographical area and also from other regions, such as Muslims from India, but also from other regions with different religious habits, such as Nepal and Punjab. Each of these groups has its own social and relationship characteristics. A very large population came to Portugal, and some of them did, but others did not, to settle down, and there is no cultural homogeneity.
In the eyes of public opinion, all the people on Rua do Benformoso, in Lisbon, are of the same origin and religion.
It is absolutely stigmatized. Of course, some owners also took advantage of the situation, thinking it was a good time to earn money from rent, with 20 or 30 citizens living in the same apartment, seeking better conditions in Portugal. Rua do Benformoso, Martim Moniz in particular, has always had this peculiarity of bringing together people who came from other countries and sought stability in Lisbon, to earn money to send home to their families, etc. And, contrary to what is said, the episodes that took place - and it is true that there were some episodes of confrontation, even of a political nature, because these were rival groups, from a political point of view, in their countries. These skirmishes were immediately taken advantage of by those who had always been against the arrival of these citizens. And it is true that you hardly see Portuguese people there, as in other areas of so many capitals around the world, such as Chinatown. Big cities, big metropolises have this peculiarity of having a neighborhood that receives mainly people from other latitudes. In other words, it is not a problem to have a Benformoso Street, it only becomes a problem when it is taken advantage of by certain ideological orientations, because - I repeat - the occasional skirmishes that take place in Martim Moniz happen with the Portuguese population every day, everywhere, all the time, not only in Portugal but throughout the world.
What do you think is the reason for the increase in prejudice against these citizens, so much seen in recent times?
A large part of this aversion, this Islamophobic feeling, is imported from northern Europe. And these fads were introduced, and the rhetoric was fed, always in the sense of security, the rhetoric that they came to steal our jobs, to rape our women, to benefit from our welfare state, that they came to create insecurity. Between 2015 and 2016, in a single year, a million refugees came to Europe, and there was fear that we would receive fighters from the Islamic State among the many who came to Europe.
Fear of terrorism is always one of the reasons given.
We label anyone a terrorist, we are very quick about it. A terrorist is someone who resorts to violence. There are fundamentalists who defend the rigor of Islam and its precepts. And there are others who resort to physical violence to impose their rhetoric, but that is a tiny fraction. And there are episodes that are watersheds, such as September 11 in New York, and even attacks in Europe, such as in 2004 at Atocha Station in Madrid. And the same thing happens later with other types of initiatives, I am talking about solitary acts, the so-called lone wolves, which occur in a dispersed manner.
How do you see society's concern about the interference of Islamic culture in Portuguese culture? There are political groups that say that in 50 years all women in Portugal will be forced to wear burqas if the "in "exodus".
This makes no sense at all. There is one thing that is inevitable to say. They did not come to a country with a Muslim majority, they came to a country with a Christian background. So, this now seems a bit like the rhetoric of far-right groups. We have to respect, of course, respect the law that they have and the culture and the principles, which is often forgotten by many people who are in the political arena and who still do not understand this. Women, when they come to the West, if they want to wear it, because it is part of their cultural habits, of them, of women, if they want to wear the hijab and even other more rigorous attire, they do so. If we look back at the Portuguese past, women in the provinces wore headscarves. Now, something different is that they have a certain understanding of what women's behavior should be outside the home, although some countries are already relaxing this. What is certain is that women, when they arrive in Portugal, I personally do not see any kind of impediment or opposition to a Muslim woman wearing the hijab. It is their free will. Now, she cannot be stigmatized, and these are the external signs, because many Muslims have external signs, in their clothing, I'm talking about men, and some, I know that some are already beginning to feel threatened, because they display Muslim symbols. I understand that this is perfectly acceptable. However, it is also not acceptable for them to come and impose their rules. Portugal is a secular country, it is a country in which religion is separate from the Government. They cannot want to impose this. And we cannot impose Christianity on Muslims, nor can we make Muslims convert Christians.
But do these citizens in Portugal have any power to impose this on the Portuguese State?
It is true that they do not. However, it is part of the rhetoric, also of the ideology of the extreme right, that if there are no rules in Europe for the entry of immigrants or for the establishment of immigrants with residence and, later even with the naturalness, this whole thing, the Muslim community in Europe will grow and grow. And the number of Muslims in the West in general, because these people come in search of better living conditions, also as a result of conflicts and wars in these areas geographical.
The Portuguese government has been clearly stating that it prefers immigrants who speak Portuguese and are Christians, in other words, that the rest are not welcome. How do you see this choice?
Some of these populations are welcome because they come to contribute to the economy and not only to the so-called humanist rhetoric. Objectively, it is like this: everywhere there are good and bad. The Portuguese also do not walk around with white wings, they are not little angels, and the same thing happens in other countries. And rejections of regularization requests will always happen. And of course Portugal is a country that is recommended for its security, it is obvious that this does not mean that there is no greater rigor on the part of the Portuguese authorities. And after the transfer of the SEF to the AIMA, we entered a disaster, it made no sense for the AIMA to replace the SEF. It was a political mistake that had consequences. And this feeds the rhetoric of the extreme right and they take advantage of the lack of information.
And how do we combat this? rhetoric?
We have to clarify, build bridges. The Brazilian population has to understand what other populations mean, what other countries mean. We have to dismantle, eliminate this poison that is being fed. And I say again, we return to Northern Europe, the countries of Northern Europe, Scandinavia, Germany, France, and Portugal is importing this, as I said before. The fight is carried out, precisely, with the intervention of non-governmental organizations, which are clarifying. There has to be actions on the ground, there has to be, the general population has to be invited. Some will offer resistance, because they think they are right, but there has to be a part. We at the Observatory of the Islamic World, although we are academics, but we also have a social obligation as academics. There has to be an action of clarification, we have to dismantle, we have to de-poison what Portuguese society is doing, and the same happens here next door, in other countries - they are clarification programs, but they have to be massive. At this time, we have to be massive, otherwise it won't work. It seems to me that the Portuguese authorities are not concerned about establishing partnerships with these organizations that promote dialogue. Dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, allow me to emphasize this word. Dialogue is something that is being lost.
And how do you consider the importance of integrating these communities?
Integration occurs through an increasing interaction between institutions and communities on the ground. The CPLP, for example, has already said that it would move forward with Portuguese courses for foreigners. There must be local and logistics for these courses to take place. The populations from these countries have become isolated, they hide in ghettos, they close themselves off, because the doors to this interaction are not opened to them. It is not because they do not want to, it is because this is imposed on them. And then they end up saying that it is not worth rowing against the tide, as the popular saying goes, because no one listens to them. There has to be institutional effort. Private institutions are the ones that are taking the lead. This is a task that has to involve not only civil society, but also the political component. Politicians have to establish partnerships with the different institutions that are geared towards helping and welcoming, there has to be a feeling of belonging. And the feeling of belonging in these societies only exists when they feel integrated and have to be helped to integrate, because otherwise they really close themselves off, take refuge.
A final issue that is on the agenda is the construction of mosques. In Porto, the city government backed down after being pressured. How do you see the construction of mosques? And with public funds?
I have some reservations about this, I must confess, because mosques, in a declaredly Christian country, are actually not well received. But the Constitution does not prohibit the worship of other faiths, so from a constitutional standpoint, now that there is so much talk about amendments to the Constitution, I see no reason not to authorize it. And these people will have to pray somewhere. I see the presence of increasingly large gatherings in gardens, for example. From the standpoint of welcoming, as I said, it is important that these people have this space, they are living here, it is important that they have this space. We can discuss whether there should be public investment for construction or not. I do not agree with public investment, because we, as taxpayers, are contributing, and it is redundant, to a situation that is not ours. But we can also say: ‘Ah, but Muslims are also contributing to the public treasury with their taxes’. Personally, I have no doubt that you can go that far. But these people need to have a place of worship.
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